Today, we are discussing our theories for Severance season two episode seven titled Chikai Bardo. And, guys, I think this was the best episode of Severance yet. I gotta be honest. We're gonna jump into that a lot more, but we're gonna talk about what does the title Chikai Bardo actually mean for Gemma and Mark? To what extent has Lumen been pulling the strings in Mark and Gemma's lives all along?
Alfredo:What's the purpose of Gemma on the testing floor? What are they actually getting into? What's the endgame over there at Lumen? And, also, just quick pause, doctor Mauer, he's op number one. I absolutely hate him.
Alfredo:You should too. If your last name is Mauer, I probably hate you too. We're gonna discuss that and more on an all new episode of Unbinged starting now.
Vignesh:Folks, y'all are watching a show discussing an episode, so we are going to spoil the absolute crap out of it. Our theories are all probably wrong, but don't blame us if we actually ruin the ending.
Alfredo:The definition of Chikay Barto is the soul experiencing death and the liminal state that could lead back to the cycle of suffering and rebirth. Ego death is what is referenced here in the show. So what are we taking from that? Vic, I wanna start with you first because you feel like you had a breakthrough in this episode as to what Lumen could be doing, and we're gonna get into all that. But I I wanna start here at the crux of the show, the title of the episode.
Vignesh:Man, I don't entirely know to tell you the truth, but, as you know, I religion is what I studied in college, and in certain, like, Tibetan Buddhist ideologies, there are six stages of death. And the first one where you start to develop separation of your, like, consciousness soul and your physical body, that's Chikai Bardo. And I think you don't need to be any sort of religion person or anything. I think you can see how that applies so much to Gemma Mark, any Audi. I don't know where they're going with all of this entirely.
Vignesh:I have a few ideas. But generally, I think the title is pointing us towards that split in our soul and consciousness at the time of death.
Jagger:Mhmm. It's very, I think parallel to what what they're actually doing down there in the Seventh Floor, which, like, in some sense, they're ripping a piece of you out and making, like, a new spirit inside of you. You know, like, speaking of
Vignesh:multiple new spirits.
Jagger:Yeah. I was about to say, I was like, how many gems are there at this point? You know? It's looks it's got a multiverse of madness in that skull. You know?
Alfredo:It's, you know, it's But it's funny, Jagger. You you mentioned the kinda, like, ripping of the soul almost and where it really I think the imagery of it kinda got sent home was at the end when Gemma is writing all those thank you notes. And the gift itself is a degrowder. And for people who aren't familiar with that, it's something that's just gonna be removing grout from in between tiles, and it's basically making the structure almost undone to an extent, and it's kinda removing that foundation and and what the adhesive that holds everything together. And I thought that was just a very absolutely strange, but fitting gift for her to get, and I think it it goes well with the title of this episode.
Alfredo:Mhmm. Coffee or decision?
Kopfhamer:Oh, I I was gonna say just comparing last episode with, Bert and Fields talking about how innies have their own separate but complete soul, and then this episode where we see Giobbardo is the separation of the soul from the body in that first stage of death, it's all kinda coming together in a really weird, interesting way. And I still don't quite know what it all means yet, and it's very frustrating, but I think it's very poignant that those two episodes happen back to back.
Vignesh:Yeah. And we need to clarify. It's not just death. Right? Hinduism, Buddhism, it's reincarnation is the cycle.
Vignesh:It's a cycle of birth and death. And I think I'm gonna touch upon this a little bit later when we, like, talk about what do we think Lewin's actually doing with severance. And I know there was, like, a lot of cloning talk early on in a lot of, like, discussions. Like, is there is it about cloning? I think we may have a bit more of an answer if I'm gonna take this reincarnation thing a little a little more literally, but we'll see.
Alfredo:So one of the things that I remember too is that we we can kinda attach how long Lumen has been pulling the strings here because you go back to when Dylan g had that card that he got from o and d, and that was the same Chikay Bardo card. And let let's just go back through these scenes here. You see the Lumen logo at the blood drive, which, by the way, I tried to pause and look at what college they're at. I don't know if you guys caught that, but I was trying to see if I get any clues as to where they were at. You see the same logo on the IVF treatment and at this clinic where it looks like doctor Maurer is there at the birthing clinic.
Alfredo:There.
Jagger:Mhmm.
Vignesh:And I looked it up.
Alfredo:The the name of it was the, Bootsman Bootsman. For fertility center, and Buzermann is a German word for boogeyman, ghost, or demon. So That's nice. Very weird nose. Very, very interesting, very on the nose.
Alfredo:Yes.
Jagger:Let this be a lesson to Google any weird name because you might be taking yourself to, I don't know, get severed or maybe just full blown reverse baptism. You know? Like, you're gonna offer up a baby to to something.
Alfredo:So, like, the the weird thing that came of this is obviously Gemma gets this thing in the mail where she starts talking about the card and and Mark sees it. And she's like, yeah. You know, it's like the drawing of the duck or the rabbit. Yeah. And and you guys referenced that in the last episode that that is behind Milchick in his office.
Alfredo:And she says, oh, I must have gotten on the mailing list at the clinic, which is just, like it's such a common thing for us to do. Be like, oh, cool. I got this weird piece of mail from some place I visited once. I must be on their mailing list. But, guys, this goes deep, man.
Alfredo:This goes deep from the first time Mark and Gemma met, to them donating blood, to going through all of their fertility issues. I mean, how much has Lumen been controlling everything in their lives? Could it have even been before that, or were they just a couple of people that they found from this blood donation thing where they go, that's it. Those are the two. Those are the people we're gonna utilize.
Kopfhamer:You could also argue that they were sat next to each other on purpose by Lumen. Yeah. So maybe Oh. Maybe they knew beforehand that these two needed to be together for some reason.
Alfredo:I'll go as far to say that they got their jobs at that college because of Lumen. Like, they ended up in the same state because of Lumen. They ended up anywhere because of Lumen. Like, who knows? Because Lumen's been around forever.
Alfredo:Or at least the the Eegans have been around forever. So, I mean, it could be anything. This could go really, really deep with them.
Jagger:Yeah. And, like, we know how algorithms work and and whatnot. So it's not and clearly, they got their their fingers in in lots of pie. So they can collect data and and really figure it out. And and on top of that, making them bereaved the parents.
Jagger:You know? The to to me, it's gross, and there's a whole other layer to that. Like, figure a doctor, you got, like, HIPAA violations. They know them so intimately at this point here that it's it it it there's no other way but saying that, obviously, they were handpicked. And just the only question is how long, you know.
Kopfhamer:Doctor Mauer saw the Hippocratic Oath and was like, don't need that.
Vignesh:Yeah. Dude, I mean but truly, first off, that scene, I love that you bring that up because we talked about the rabbit duck thing before. And I didn't think about it until a little bit later. But what does that actually represent? Right?
Vignesh:It represents that that sort of duality of the innie and the outie. Because when you look at that picture, it is either a duck or a rabbit, but it never exists as both simultaneously for you. And yet, it is the same thing, which which I think is a nice little touch. But at the same time, you know, y'all are talking a little bit more about how long have they been pulling the strings, and it's gotta be from the beginning. And there's at least three times I see Mauer sort of say something or do something that references something we saw in the flashback.
Vignesh:Right? Like, the book he picks up is the death of evil, which we'll talk about that later. That book is great. Or it's a great reference. I don't know.
Vignesh:It was a tough read. I remember read it years ago. The way he says, I love you, the same tone, or I said I love you, like, that, like, we see them say that the exact way. Like, are they recording everything? Or even of all the things to say when he says, hey, you know, Mark remarried.
Vignesh:He had a daughter. Like, they reference their child as a she in the flashback. Like, I don't know. Maybe I'm looking into it too much, but this show is so meticulous and crafted so well that I really do believe that this is super orchestrated. I think they've been watching this for Lord knows how long and orchestrated all of this.
Vignesh:We don't know why. We have some ideas, but, again, man, this is just masterpiece.
Alfredo:Yeah, guys. And we're we're gonna get into all that. We're gonna discuss why we think Lumen is doing this, what could be going on on the testing floor, what the end game is for Lumen. But before we do that, I just wanna remind everybody, you've got a bunch of ways that you can enjoy this show unbinged versus right here on YouTube. So if you're watching this video, take a second to like this video.
Alfredo:Comment down below with your thoughts on the recent episode of Severance, your thoughts on our theory so far, any of your theories. And we we always try to answer back to each of these and keep the conversation going. Share this with your friends so you can keep the conversation going with them. And, of course, we are also discussing the White Lotus season three, Invincible season three, and we're keeping up with that every single week, so you'll be able to get your reactions and your discussions to each of those shows as well. And, of course, if you're listening on Apple or Spotify, take a second to leave a five star review.
Alfredo:It's a big help for us. Alright, guys. Back into the discussion here, our theories. The purpose of Gemma on the testing floor. You know, every time I think I have the show figured out, I don't.
Alfredo:And every time that I think that I'm smart enough to understand it, I realized I'm pretty stupid. And this episode just continued to perpetuate all of those feelings of just mental inadequacy because I've had so many different thoughts and theories as to what is going on there. And then every time I think of it, I'm just like, nah. Nah. I I don't know.
Alfredo:Where do you guys think this is leading to? Because my first thought was she's the vessel for baby Kier. And then I was like, well, it seems like there's just so much more going on here. Like, it could actually just be very, very corporate. Koff, I know you had some thoughts on this.
Kopfhamer:Oh, boy. Like you said, man, every episode, this show makes me question my own intelligence because at one point, I was convinced they're doing some sort of, like, human hybrid testing, and that's what the goats were for. But I'm like, that's dumb and stupid. I was in on the cloning theory at one point. I was like, they're gonna resurrect Kier and bring his consciousness back through the MDR processing of the tempers.
Kopfhamer:But I think that's completely out the window because I think at this point, we are looking more at Lumen as a corporate entity utilizing cult tactics just to draw people in. But, really, I think at the end of the day, this is almost, severance is almost like an a mundane thing that that, Lumen has turned into this horrifying concept. But I really do think it goes back to maybe corporate greed where they're trying to almost give a dual product. So rich people that can afford it can have this, hey. I wanna turn my brain off for an hour while I'm at the dentist, and I don't have to worry about it.
Kopfhamer:I don't have to be anxious about going to the dentist, while at the same time presenting it to the rest of us poor folks who are like, hey. I don't wanna remember the eight hours a day in my work. And they're like, we got a solution for you, and now you get to be the perfect, you know, almost slave labor for whatever company is, like, is, taking on the severance process. So I
Alfredo:think you're right about what That's
Kopfhamer:where I'm at now.
Alfredo:I think you're right about one thing, and I think it's that Lumen doesn't necessarily have one end game in mind. I think that they are finding many, many purposes, many uses for this severance. And Gemma might just actually be sort of their what we're gonna call it. Like, yeah, the guinea pig? Yeah.
Vignesh:Like, I I really feel it. The guinea pig?
Jagger:I mean, the the guinea pig. Nice. Yeah. And and I guess I felt the opposite because, like, I've been saying that they're internal sunshining people, and and in some ways, that they are. You know?
Jagger:And, obviously, Jim is just the stress test. Like like Can you explain that
Vignesh:a little bit further for,
Alfredo:like, for example, me who has never seen that movie, I'm always nodding. I'm like, yep. You're right. Eternal sun shining.
Vignesh:Oh. First off, you have to watch that, Alfredo. Yeah.
Alfredo:Yeah. I'll get there. I'll get there. We're watching, like, seven different shows right now.
Jagger:To to to people who are going through, like, a breakup, a split, they want to eliminate each other from their brain. And
Alfredo:Oh, wow. Okay.
Jagger:And even even though they've done that, they keep coming back to each other and falling in love.
Vignesh:Got it.
Jagger:You know?
Kopfhamer:Isn't there a Black Mirror episode kinda like that?
Jagger:Yeah. Like, the Yeah. There's been several kind of versions of this. So this is kind of the same concept that, like, I think the religious factor is just like, okay. We're gonna bring some of these good feelings from the inside out, and then there's this all all these other business facets.
Jagger:It's like we see Gemma going through stress tests to where it's just like, what what are some of the worst times for people? Like, I hate flying. I I don't like the dentist. Christmas yeah. Christmas sucks.
Jagger:It's like, alright. Go pimp out your in your any or whatever you're gonna call it to go do this. And that and that's like what what you said, Koff. That's for the rich people. For the poors, you are a soldier.
Jagger:You're gonna go in and, yeah, and, like like, this movie isn't out yet, but I imagine it's like Mickey 17 where you're just this kind of who gives a shit.
Alfredo:You know? Expendable.
Jagger:Expendable. Exactly. Like and they can't, like, physically kill you, but everything else is just kinda fair game at that point.
Vignesh:Yeah. Can I take this a step further? I might talk a little longer here than I think any individual should. I agree. I think there's the Lumen corporate product.
Vignesh:There's a Lumen common person product, but Lumen is a cult. And that gear stuff, I can't forget that. And so I try to think about, like, what are these experiences? First off, the the writing thank you notes is clearly referenced earlier that in the flashbacks that she hates doing it, but making her do it with her left hand, that's something you sort of like that is just that's woah, one of the tempers. A car a flight that is, like, crashing or turbulent, people dread that sort of thing.
Vignesh:Right? Or maybe dentist is woe. Or I don't know. Maybe it's malice. Maybe you get malice when you're thinking
Jagger:a little bit.
Kopfhamer:All of them are all, yeah. I think they're all, like, dread I
Vignesh:think they're all different tempers. And I don't know if she's frolicking. Miss Casey, maybe.
Kopfhamer:She's In the heart
Vignesh:of that. I've been pretty this is the happiest I've been when she, like, observed Helly and Mark r, and, like, she's the wellness person. She's literally frolicked. And we know that that's what they are refining.
Kopfhamer:Shit. Right?
Vignesh:That so now they're What if your
Alfredo:only place to frolic is when you're the innie? What if, like, that's what they're trying to do?
Vignesh:That's what they're trying to do. That's what they're trying to do. They're trying to do. And that goes into the depth of, like, even Ilyich where you have this, like, the authentic self. The the one who can experience happiness in that story is like, the one who's not like tied in by societal requirements and everything else.
Vignesh:And I don't wanna get too much into that book, but that's what that reference is. And the innie is your true happiness. Milchuck tells our guy, Mark, right, he says, look, your innie is doing great work. And when he becomes happy and does things, it's gonna reflect in what you're doing. Petey says that at the very beginning to Mark two.
Vignesh:He says, your sadness out here is down there. Your guy feels the sadness. He just doesn't know why.
Alfredo:So
Vignesh:I see the tempers. I see how that could play a role. But we see this baby Kier, and I don't know. Gemma's been away long enough to, like I almost wonder, Gemma went willingly or did she go willingly? Like, what
Jagger:is she going to do? Sort of.
Vignesh:Because I think that Because Like yeah. I I think she was willing and I think she knew this was happening.
Alfredo:Quick vote. Quick vote. Who thinks she went willingly?
Vignesh:Dude, I don't think she anticipated to be this I don't think she anticipated to be this long. She's like, I'd like to go see Mark now. I think she went willingly in the promise of, like, either an ability to forget grief, and maybe that's what cold harbor is. Maybe cold harbor is death, because they talk about mudslide and suffocation, would you rather drown, whatever. Or is cold harbor the ability to forget the grief of having lost the child?
Vignesh:Like, being able to like like, Eternal Sunshine, the grief of your life.
Kopfhamer:Or is Cold Harbor referencing an in inhospitable womb?
Alfredo:Maybe. Oh, boy.
Vignesh:I don't know
Alfredo:if that's we're we're deep down here.
Kopfhamer:Deep deep in there.
Vignesh:Like I said, I'm going really deep into this, but we're gonna get re incarnation now. I think we're gonna get reincarnation of Kier as an ultimate goal, by the way. Jagger, sorry. I'll let you finish in a sec. But I do think that's what they're may be doing here.
Vignesh:Was Gemma the vessel? Did they promise her a child? Did she actually have an innie who went through an entire pregnancy delivered a child that we don't know about?
Alfredo:Oh, shit. Miss Wong?
Vignesh:And that child Yeah. Because they have the DNA of these guys. Right? Like, when they donate blood. Like, are they trying to we we know they've created, like, basically, the environment Kier grew up in.
Vignesh:Right? Like, the the recreation of his home and the scenario, what he ate, and, like, everything else is there. Like, do you have a child if you bring it up nature versus nurture? Can you bring back the OG Kier? I don't know.
Vignesh:These are all crazy theories, but they they do a good job leading breadcrumbs that lead us to all of these little things.
Kopfhamer:What about the goats?
Alfredo:What are the goats? Big man. Take off your chef hat and your apron. You cut right now.
Vignesh:I don't know, man. I went off dude, I paused so many times for every little thing. I rewound. I went back. I looked at, like, random things.
Vignesh:Like, if you look at the French, I don't know French. I Google Translate it. The French in a picture in, like, their room, it says, help me. If you look at what else Robbie Benson's done, he was the beast. Right?
Vignesh:So doctor Maurer literally voice acted the beast, and this like all Stockholm Syndrome me all over again. Like, man, how many layers? Did any of y'all watch Dollhouse with Deachen Lockman in that show? Mhmm. Man, I won't ruin it.
Kopfhamer:The hallway scene. The hallway scene.
Vignesh:Look at the synopsis of Dollhouse. Yeah. Look at the synopsis for dollhouse, and you'll see how close it could be potentially to severance.
Alfredo:Well, damn. Alright. Alright. I'm done. You gotta take a breather here.
Alfredo:Jack, what were you gonna say?
Jagger:I was gonna say, I think how Gemma went in there is pretty simple. I think it's the same reason Mark went in. It's like she just felt a lot of grief, didn't know what to do with that, and we did some crazy experiment. And they recruited her for and manipulated her to go in there. People join cults and do weird shit all the time for the same reasons.
Jagger:And so then Mark would go in there afterward. But I but I what I will say, it's kind of like Ozymandias to doctor Manhattan where they manipulated and set all of this up for her to go and do and do it. But and and that and that's why I think even the, the miscarriage I mean, their pharmaceutical company. I'm I'm sure that they found some way to to to induce that. Yeah.
Jagger:And the things that, like, again, I wanna take a victory lap on it too because, like, Cobell was raised in there. Like, Regavi said it. Like, all all the things that were actually confirmed yeah. All the things that were confirmed there is, like, they raise these people in there. Milchik has been raised in there.
Jagger:All of these people have been raised. Yeah. All these people have been doing this for life, and that's the only way you can get this within there. So that's why I'll go and say that at least it was from the beginning, but I don't know about the resurrecting Kier per se type shit. Because they've been pretty clear that it's not clowing.
Jagger:They they yeah. As I said, they've been clear that it's not cloning. So
Kopfhamer:Well, I think Kier is the one that came up with the idea of severance back in
Jagger:the
Kopfhamer:eighteen hundreds with the Dieter twin bullshit. Like, he didn't have a twin. That was him expressing his own. Mhmm. I need to purge myself of this internal demon, if you will, because I need to focus on industry.
Kopfhamer:And so it wasn't until, you know, a couple hundred hundred fifty years later when they had the technology to actually make it come true that the fulfillment of his dream is now a reality. Whether or not they want to actually resurrect him, I don't think it matters at this point because they are fulfilling his his dream. And I think that it's the ultimate goal for Lumen.
Vignesh:Perfect. I do think it might matter a little bit. And maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but he talks about, you know, you go through a revolving door, you go all the way through, you end up where you started. And they use that term revolving. Right?
Vignesh:Egan says, you're gonna be there, or you'll be there for my revolving or something along those lines too. Right? So I still think that there has to be a I think we have a better idea of what Lumen is as a corporate entity, what Lumen is as a as a, you know, a job opportunity for the common man. But I think the Lumen is a cult, and what they're trying to do, and all of this Kier stuff, there's I just feel like there's something more there that they're also building. Maybe I'm completely off, but there's so many things.
Vignesh:Especially now with this title of Chicay Barto, that's pointing towards something related to reincarnation. So So I'm gonna plant my flag, some sort of reincarnation. We'll see how wrong I am.
Kopfhamer:Today, they they could just
Alfredo:have a different level.
Kopfhamer:They could just have a child. Maybe Mark and and Helena have a child. Maybe that's her end goal, and they just claim this is the reincarnation of Kier.
Jagger:Sure. And
Kopfhamer:I just didn't seem to be the I don't
Jagger:think it's reincarnation at all, man. I just like, I No.
Vignesh:No. Literally reinterpretation that believes.
Alfredo:There can be various interpretations of it of, like, this revolving the life cycle in in a way. So maybe in reincarnation is not the exact word, but I think the revolving, the life cycle, whatever the interpretation is of it. I I think there's gotta be a reason why there's so much, emphasis on this baby cure that's always in the intro and in this season and, the this task at hand that has to be done for Kier. I I'm I I think I'm with you on it. I I think it's just important to make that separation, that it's probably not reincarnation.
Vignesh:No. No. I don't think it's
Alfredo:getting any and it doesn't seem to be cloning
Vignesh:on reincarnation.
Jagger:Yeah. And then, like and and they've actually said one. Right?
Vignesh:I'm sorry. Go ahead, Jagger.
Jagger:I was gonna say they've actually said Ben Stiller literally said it has nothing to do with cloning, and they said that, like, if it's cloned, it's dumber, it's dumber than what they are doing. And the and what's crazy, I think, like, cloning would be cool. So, like, if if they're really gonna set that out.
Alfredo:I had a thought. Like, what if if like, I mean, we owe that Gemma's already on the testing floor, and there
Vignesh:could be a thing where
Alfredo:she is testing for the rich people and all that, like, seeing, like, how far can severance be taken? I mean, what if the Mark becoming a father thing still holds true? And what if the the baby that's supposed to be birthed or potentially could be birthed between Mark and Helena is meant to be this next coming of Kier. And it could actually just be, it could just be a regular ass. It could just be a regular ass baby, but something that has been genetically altered or created through Lumen almost as their next, Jesus Christ Kier of sorts.
Jagger:The only reason why I'm gonna let this one go is I just watched Pantheon, and, like, that is the plot to Pantheon, like, a %. Like, it it and it's you you like, I keep recommending it. You should watch it. But a %, they clone their CEO to bring them back to, like, fix something. And I don't know, man.
Jagger:We all work at places I've worked at places where even to a minute level, you get this cult like affinity for your boss where you're gonna do some stupid ass shit just speak just to make the boss happy even though that everyone knows that it's really dumb. You're gonna kiss the boss's ass. That's just that, like, every, like, normal job. When you get to these big corporations, like, imagine how Elon Musk is to the people who work for him or, like, started out early on for him. They and or or especially are in his circle, like, his, like, his inner circle on there.
Jagger:You they literally have to worship him to stay there because their egos are so big. So I think this might be like a caricature of that to a an extent. And now Kier is just Jesus. And I mean that, like like, he's the the father, the son, and the holy spirit, and he's the one thing that we're always gonna reference. And then just bringing severance back or bringing out all these innies, it like like, Kier's gonna live through them.
Jagger:And, like, it sounds really stupid, but so is religion. So, oops.
Kopfhamer:I mean, this is clearly a a cult of personality, like, in in the show. I mean, we hear it from Drummond. We hear it from Mauer. We hear it from Cobell earlier. We hear from Milczyk.
Kopfhamer:All this in Kier. We live in Kier. Kier lives in us.
Vignesh:For Kier.
Kopfhamer:Like, they reference it over and over and over. And it's it's just again, the ones that have been raised in it, it makes sense because that's all they know.
Jagger:That's all they know.
Kopfhamer:But these people coming in from outside as adults like Mark, When when Milczyk confronts him in the elevator and he flipped it and he says, yeah. We're doing it for Kier. In Kier, we trust. Like, you see that dichotomy of, like, people born into it versus people forced into it or led into it. And and I think that's gonna be a driving point here by the end of the season where we see the people break free of that conditioning because they weren't born into it, and they realize this is all fucked.
Kopfhamer:We need to we need to burn it to the ground like Irving said earlier or last season.
Vignesh:Yeah. You brought up Drummond. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Alfredo.
Alfredo:No. I was actually gonna talk
Vignesh:about Drummond. Mhmm. Yeah. Talk about Drummond. I have a different question.
Vignesh:He just I feel like every word in the show is meticulously thought about. Like, you don't say words for no reason here. And they didn't Yeah. He didn't say you like her to Mauer. He said, you like this one.
Vignesh:And of course, they talk about he says, you know, I think she likes me too. And he was like, didn't she try to break her fingers and all that sort of stuff. So clearly, like, hitting him over the head with a aluminum chair for the top rope isn't the first time she's tried to do something like this. But we've done this before. How long have they been working on this?
Vignesh:You like this one? Like, Mauer has been doing this sort of stuff for a while, I'm guessing. Gemma's You
Alfredo:see how many rooms are there. They can't all be testing rooms. Like, I I have to assume that Gemma's not the only one that is being held there. I have to assume that Gemma is part of a there's a plan a, plan b, plan c plan, however many, and that Mark and his MDR grouping is simply just for Gemma. And then there's gotta be all different other MDR departments around various offices that are doing this for other people that are on that testing floor.
Jagger:Yeah. I imagine it's, like,
Vignesh:except Mark seems so important.
Jagger:So what?
Vignesh:I was saying, except for the one thing is that they keep referencing Mark being the most important. So maybe the Mark Vemma pairing is the most important.
Jagger:You see now, you're you're leading up to one year.
Alfredo:Successful version of it, though.
Jagger:Yeah. That's what I was gonna say. It's deus ex machina. They're Oscar Isaac down there where he's done this, like, three or four times, and now Jemez is number one model down there. And then we've already kinda said this.
Jagger:Like, I genuinely think there are two models. It's like, do you want poor severance for your workforce, or are you the rich? And, like, they, like, they they genuinely have to. It's like like, look. We stretched we stretched this bitch out.
Jagger:We did everything but put her through childbirth. We actually don't even know. They might have done that. You know, like, we we we actually know that they've
Kopfhamer:had someone somebody.
Vignesh:Yes.
Jagger:Has had childbirth. The burning. Yeah. Exactly. Like like, we'd like, we have proof in there.
Jagger:They have everything out, and they're gonna make beaucoup of money. And to me, once you're in people's brains, and I mean that both both literally and figuratively, you're already living in the state that's just a step further of integrating, like, a major business or corporation over everything. Like, when we're kind of the generation who grew up with this, like yeah. I was supposed to say neural yeah. I was supposed to say neural link.
Jagger:Batman Beyond, that universe where it's just big corporations that are ruling us, and Lumen has found a way to get in our bodies, in our pockets, and now in our spirits. So
Alfredo:I wanna bring this up because we've been talking about Drummond, and we've mentioned doctor Mauer a bunch of times. And that conversation that the two of them have were
Vignesh:Vague,
Alfredo:like you mentioned, Drummond says, you like this one, and Mauer says, well, she's easy to like. She's fond of me as well. And he reminds Mauer when he's done referring to Mark, you're going to have to say goodbye to her. And I'm wondering how far Feminists. This goes.
Alfredo:Yeah. Like, how far does this go where Mauer, I mean, obviously, has the very creepy overtones that are there, with him, and it seems like he could be another person that might be willing to break the rules a little bit within Lumen, that his affections for Gemma might be going a bit too far, especially with the way that he kinda hits her with the, Mark has remarried and has a daughter. He's moved on. Maybe you've felt things behind those doors that you never felt with Mark. And this I mean, he was already
Kopfhamer:off the
Alfredo:one. Mauer's a fuck. And and and
Jagger:he's so weird fuck too. He's Yeah.
Kopfhamer:And it's Yeah.
Jagger:And you and you have to know. Like, now he's being weird. Like, to me, for if if they would, I guess, reshoot what we just saw from Mauer's perspective, It's just one dude doing anything he can to get laid. He's like, do you like me with a beard and a Christmas sweater on? He's like, what about me with a mustache as a flight attendant?
Jagger:They're like, would you fuck me, Genima? Do you like this? Because he's just like he's just hoping that, like, one of the 60 versions of him. Yeah. Like
Alfredo:This man is on ultimate speed dating and losing every time.
Jagger:Exactly. He's like he's like, one version of me can hit. I know it. Oh my god. It's love is it's love is blind.
Jagger:It's and he's failing. He's holding one spot. Yeah. He's just crashing out every time.
Vignesh:And I think but one nice thing about this whole Mauer, Mauer conversation is, you know, he they talk about is the severance barrier holding? And then when he asks her all these questions, it looks like emotionally, he thinks it's holding. Right? She doesn't remember the agony. She doesn't remember how long she was there or what was happening.
Vignesh:But she does remember the physical stuff. Right? Like, her left hand hurts a little bit, or her jaw hurts a little bit. But she clearly does. Her Audi, at least, like, clearly still has the feel, like, she's like, no, you're wrong.
Vignesh:I don't believe you. I don't think he remarried or all of that. And it's just it's really I don't know. It's really trying to help me figure this is helping me try to figure out what else this could really be about. But those questions and the severance barrier, maybe it's just what we said before.
Vignesh:Rich people wanting to get out of mundane activities that they really hate. But can't help but think there's gotta be something deeper deeper than this just that, which is why, like, I was talking about reincarnation. So but but the Mauer scenes are all, I think, really powerful and give us a lot of things to think about and more information about what is this all about and what are they really doing to Gemma.
Kopfhamer:Also, with that scene, right, when they're talking about is it holding, what's going on with the MDR observers who look just like their MDR counterpoints? The twin, like, what is going on with this
Jagger:twin? Are they twins? Yeah. I was put They just look very similar.
Kopfhamer:Similar. Though the one that's Mark's twin or whatever, it looked to me, I thought it was Petey at first. I was
Vignesh:like,
Kopfhamer:oh, shit. Petey's back. And then and then it was like, oh, no. And then they cut away and you see a Helena type. You see a Dylan lookalike, and then you see an Irving lookalike.
Kopfhamer:And then Were these the same as that Robert in the first row,
Vignesh:by the way?
Jagger:Nah. The problem's gotta be like
Vignesh:some animatronic thing, man. Those things you think you're literally out there in the cold with no cold weather gear just standing there for. Crazy.
Jagger:Just a reason? Yeah. I genuinely do. Because you saw Cobell. Have you have you
Alfredo:not seen a Buffalo Bills game where dudes are in Speedos sitting in the stands?
Jagger:What are you talking about?
Alfredo:I will say this. I
Vignesh:looked at the credits. I looked at the credits for the Orp Boy episode and this episode, and they are listed as the same people as for the Oh,
Alfredo:then get fucked.
Kopfhamer:There you go. But
Jagger:but I wish you like that. I'm trying to gaslight us. That's using that's
Vignesh:using contact information. Right? Like, that's me breaking the fourth wall to get information. You shouldn't do that. But but
Alfredo:they are the same
Vignesh:people literally in the in the in the
Alfredo:That's why people watch our show. For that, for content.
Kopfhamer:So do you guys do you think this is just a continuation of the theme of, you know, Kier and twins and, like, you have to separate? Or, like, I I just don't understand what the point is of having these look alikes or similar look alikes
Alfredo:Do I
Kopfhamer:observing them.
Alfredo:Honestly.
Jagger:Yeah. It's it's it's just selling it, dude.
Alfredo:Having a plan b, a plan c, a plan everything. Like, I just we don't know how many layers there are. I think that this is so integral to the the concept of severance and Lumen is that it's all within the same building, and it's just different floors. And the more floors you keep going down. And and, Koff, I think you wrote it.
Kopfhamer:Dante's Inferno.
Alfredo:Your show notes. Yes. About Dante's Inferno and and, the nine levels of hell and, like, how I mean yeah. I think it's all there, and I think this is all very reasonable to think of at this time. And, one thing that I think it's leading to is we haven't talked about the last room in all of this that Gemma still has not gone into, and that's Cold Harbor.
Alfredo:And we talk about that, about how Drummond says, you know, once this is done, you're gonna have to say goodbye to her. I wonder this. The question that she's asked where it almost looks like they're they're checking her brain activity. I'm not sure. Maybe, Vig, you can check-in on that when she's being asked questions by the nurse where they talk about if there's a mudslide, would you be more afraid of drowning or suffocating?
Alfredo:And I'm wondering if they're looking for the, quote, death The next death. Most traumatic
Jagger:for
Alfredo:her severed any self to experience in Cold Harbor. And it it it may might be going a little too far here, but I just do genuinely think that Cold Harbor is the last room she goes to where this version of her experience is death. And it's it could be something where they say, I think I just stumbled upon it right here. If your innies and outies have different souls, can you bypass death? Can you have immortality?
Alfredo:Is that something where you have different souls, that soul dies, you still have another soul? Is it kinda like Well,
Jagger:you got the same vessel. Lives. Yeah. I mean, like, unless you're
Alfredo:This is why they're testing.
Jagger:Yeah.
Alfredo:That's what I'm getting at. It's it's like how how much can the brain slash soul in this in this concept overcome the body's pain or or, you know, lack of life force at that point.
Kopfhamer:And what is the chip's role in all that? Like, does it keep a copy of your consciousness? Does it is it able to be like, we know that Pete's Petey's was removed by Cobell. We don't know what the what they did with it after she analyzed it to see if reintegration worked. So is it potentially that they can take the chip after you your innie dies or or your Audi.
Kopfhamer:Take the chip and they could put it into a new vessel or a new body and then almost override that version or that body's initial consciousness with your chip consciousness. Is that the endgame?
Vignesh:Maybe. And I don't know what the chip does. Right? Like, we talk about reintegration. Is that just the chip has a bunch of different severance barriers inside of you and it removes the barriers?
Vignesh:Because, Regabi we'll talk about Regabi, man. I got I got some thoughts there. Yeah. We'll get it. Tells Devon he's going on a journey, and what we're really seeing is maybe he's actually seeing all these flashbacks that we are and maybe his any Audi brain, like, stuff's all coming together.
Vignesh:Yep. Minor little thing is, you know, every time the, first off, the the makeup and the way they have Mark look like a different human in flashbacks versus now is just incredible. Right? You can see what depression and grief has done to him. I don't think I've ever seen it done more masterfully in a show.
Vignesh:Mhmm. But in all of those happy scenes and everything else, the flashbacks are shot with warm colors. And we've seen, like, colors in red and blue and, like, how they film being really great. But when he finally wakes up, it's warm again for the first time in Mark's Audi's existence that I can remember. I haven't I need to go back and look at it.
Vignesh:So I do wonder if he's sort of reintegrated it. I don't know if the chip is storing memories or if the chip is creating severance barriers that allow the memories to integrate. Yeah.
Alfredo:This is also the first time that we see Mark in just the daytime in general sunlight. Normally, we we only see him in the mornings or the evenings when he's done with work where just life is cold and dark and mundane. So, yeah, that's a good call. That's a good call, Vague.
Jagger:He's gonna eat a sad dinner at the same diner that, like, only him and Drummond. Well, Regati
Vignesh:Regati, at some point, says, like, you got reintegration's the only way you get to Gemma. And I wonder if he's fully reintegrated, just bear with me here. Maybe he can go through all of these elevators, and he can Yes. You know, even down to the testing floor. Right?
Vignesh:Is this how he gets to meet Gemma without getting Mhmm. You know, the miss Casey version? Because she obviously is miss Casey. I don't know, but I think that may might be where they're heading.
Jagger:It checks to get into that extra layer of case.
Kopfhamer:Yeah. They purposely showcase that this is the perfect trap. Like, you even if you escape your one level, you have to go through several more just to get to the to Yeah. Exactly.
Jagger:Yeah. Right. And, like By the
Alfredo:way, one thing sorry. Go go, Jack. Go. I was
Jagger:gonna say, is Cold Harbor like the cheese kind of and, like, and and Gemma I
Alfredo:mean, I
Jagger:was gonna bring that up right now. Yeah. Gemma and Mark are just kind of the mice, and they're just like, woah. They're they're close, you know.
Kopfhamer:Except for their cheese's death.
Alfredo:Yeah. So that that's what I wanna figure out here is the the MDR, when they're talking about being 96 of the way there to completing Cold Harbor, I think that kinda takes us in a different direction because a lot of us thought it had something to do with Gemma and her DNA and something going on in her brain, which maybe they are developing something in her brain, but I think it maybe has something more to do with that room. Almost like we saw in Rogue One, not Rogue One, in Andor, where the prisoners are just making all these different cogs for machines. They don't really know what it is. And then by the time we get to the end, spoilers, by the way, for Andor, you know, the Star Wars series that's in in movies that have been around for ages, they're building the death star.
Alfredo:And so it's a wonder that, for MDR, if, you know, it's not just that they're doing something genetically or or it's in someone's mind, they're out here building Cold Harbor, which is essentially the, I don't know, the death trap that we wanna call it that, to start this whole revolving of the new life.
Kopfhamer:Or could there be that one moment
Vignesh:I'm sorry. Go ahead, Matt.
Kopfhamer:Yeah. There was that one moment they were doing the montage of the MDR observers, and they were watching him do the, the Drainsville, I think, file and completing that. And now that's one of the rooms that Gemma was being tested in.
Alfredo:That's what I'm saying.
Kopfhamer:So I wonder if MDR almost has to prepare these tests, and that's what the data mining is. And then Gemma then, once it's complete, goes into it. But I don't know. It seems very specific to her alone because not everyone's afraid of flying. Not everyone's afraid of the dentist.
Kopfhamer:Not everyone cares about writing the numbers that
Alfredo:are scary. But no. Remember, it's the numbers that are scary. It's the numbers that stand out to you, and that's why Mark is so good at it. His team is fine,
Kopfhamer:but Mark is
Alfredo:the best one at it. But Mark knows her, and that's why these things stand out to him so much.
Jagger:And and to me, it's I don't Maybe they're not even doing anything. Like, I don't maybe I said this last time. I think maybe it's just a Rorschach test. And, again, they're just mice being observed. It's like go doodle around.
Alfredo:Yeah.
Jagger:Go go move some stuff in in some buckets while this weird fucker in a Geek Squad outfit watches you. You know?
Kopfhamer:That's So that goes back into that goes back into the themes of, like, purgatory and hell where this is a Sisyphean I can't say that word. But this is one of those tasks where it's like you roll the the The boulder.
Vignesh:Boulder up
Jagger:the mountain.
Kopfhamer:And then it Yeah. Sisyphus. The story is Sisyphus. He rolls the boulder up every day. He gets to the top, then it rolls back down.
Kopfhamer:He has to do it over and over and over, and that's his punishment for eternity. So I wonder if this could be something like that, Jagger, where it's like, the work is mysterious and important because it's bullshit.
Jagger:Yeah. It's
Vignesh:yeah. That's, what's Jagger? Means for the rich people. Honestly, it would be a great just imagine that, you know, you're an Audi. You're, you know, you're dying.
Vignesh:You have hospice. You're worried about dying. Whatever. You just sever yourselves. Your innie dies.
Vignesh:And that's it. You never experienced death. Your innie's dead. You died clearly. The vessel's gone.
Vignesh:So there's a lot of ways that Cold Harbor could be could be utilized. Right? I could see that being potentially, like, someone who knows they're dying.
Kopfhamer:Scared to death.
Alfredo:Can can they then revive your consciousness in a new body?
Vignesh:Exactly. And could that And and that's where
Alfredo:all of a sudden we're cheating death. Right? We have immortality, and this is where the ultra rich it's it's honestly it's products for the it's products for the rich. It's in its its service for the poor. You can do your job and not be as sad about your shitty job, and you get to go home back to your shitty life and just keep all of your shit separate.
Alfredo:It's honestly, I think it kind of all just goes back to, yes, there's this weird cult here, but this cult is good at making money, and they're good at They all are. Business.
Jagger:Yep. They
Alfredo:all are. I I've been in many cults
Vignesh:as a leader and a follower. You have more money
Jagger:as a follower. Make more money as a leader.
Alfredo:I didn't wanna go too much rabbit
Vignesh:hole, by the way. But I have another rabbit hole that I didn't was not gonna bring up for today. But if my man's gonna bring
Alfredo:up mythology
Vignesh:Greek mythology or duck hole.
Alfredo:Good one. Thanks.
Vignesh:I don't know how how much y'all know about Orpheus, his journey down to descend to Hades, to go see his wife, Eurydice. I mean Persephone. Dude, this is all this is, like, this is that whole story all over again too.
Kopfhamer:Yeah. Mark has the decision. Which leads
Vignesh:to if they follow the story, maybe some potentially tragic endings. I won't spoil any of that. But, man, this is there's layers to all of
Kopfhamer:this stuff. Oh, does that make Milchik, the fairy guy for the River Styx? Because he has to be the one I don't know.
Alfredo:He could
Vignesh:he could be Cerberus. The three headed dog. Oh, shit. I don't know. True.
Jagger:Yeah. Because you got, like, nice Milchick, then you got, like, you know, you fucked. Angry. Helena Egan. No chick.
Jagger:Exactly.
Alfredo:The the various personalities of them.
Jagger:Yeah. Yeah. And then well, then who is Cobell? What is that? It's just a problem.
Kopfhamer:She's eighties.
Alfredo:Or, I mean, maybe it is if we're staying inside the Greek mythology thing, maybe the severed floor manager is almost like a hydra of sorts where you cut off one head and now two have appeared with Milchik and Wong. And what and then what if Milchik gets fired? Now it's Wong and two other little junior high kids running on. You got three of them.
Jagger:Then it turns into, like, an anime. You just got, like, three little Asian girls bullying men. Just
Kopfhamer:don't treat black people.
Alfredo:So okay. I think we've we've gone really far down the rabbit and or duck hole on on what could be going on on the testing floor. So I I wanna go back to the outside here where we talk about Mark, his reintegration. And this episode was really interesting because it was talking about how a look back into the past shows, some deadly consequences for today. That was the synopsis of of the, of the show.
Alfredo:And so Devon Regabi Devon had that really funny, had that really funny line where it's like, if you give one solitary thought to messing with my brother, I will throw you off a fucking bridge. And there's that moment where all like, yes, Devon. You are it. And then she makes that
Kopfhamer:You wanna talk about it?
Alfredo:Wanted to call Cobell. And and we'll we'll finish up here quickly. We don't have too much time left. But guys, what what's going on for Gabby?
Jagger:Because Dude, she's a hinge. I think she's broken. Very fast. She's she's broken, dude. I feel like she is hiding from she's that person who's paranoid hiding from a company at the same time, and she has knowledge and power to help, which is arguably dangerous.
Jagger:If she was state whistleblower. Yeah. I mean, kind of. She really is. Yeah.
Jagger:Yeah. Like like, she like, I don't wanna die, so she's crazy, but she might be the only person to do this. And the problem is if there was, like, a secret group kind of like district thirteen in, Hunger Games or something and you could pull Regabi in there, then you could work with something. But Regabi has too much power to really be trusted at this point because what does Mark have over her, you know, besides the fact that he can snitch? Nothing.
Jagger:So Regavi is able to just act unhinged, survive on fucking Betty Crocker frosting like a crazy person. You know?
Kopfhamer:Which, it was interesting to me when she was like, you're gonna call her bell? I'm out immediately. When before, she was like, no. We have to continue the work. We have to continue the work.
Kopfhamer:We have to continue the reintegration. So it's gotten to the point now where it seems like she is more hell bent on taking down Lumen than protecting Mark. So she has to. I think she will absolutely throw Mark under the bus as a sacrificial lamb and and continue on herself, finding somebody else. Maybe she'll approach Irving next or she'll approach Dylan next to try to get a new test subject if she has to burn Mark.
Vignesh:And I do think that is gonna
Alfredo:be the one to bring her back in. Because somehow Cobell's gotta get back into the story, and maybe we'll find out what she's been doing. But I wouldn't be surprised if Devon is the one to bring her back in after not knowing what to do. And and regarding And they
Kopfhamer:left it ambiguous. They left it ambiguous. We don't know if she called her or not. Like, it seemed like she called her at one point, and then it it showed her screen. She hadn't yet.
Kopfhamer:So we don't know if she actually did this episode.
Vignesh:Yeah. The one thing I'll just say as as my criticism for this show so far, the only criticism I think I've really ever had was I'm really tired of the trope of, like, someone having information just not telling someone else leading to a whole miscommunication or, you know, if Ragati has information, like, man, I I know they have good reasons for it. They, like, maybe could sell her paranoia a little bit better, but, like, when she says, are you a doctor? He will, like, if Regavi just, like, would sat instead of saying, oh, he's going on a journey, saying, hey, look, he wanted to be reintegrated. That's what I've been doing.
Vignesh:I'm a doctor. I used to work for there. Gemma's alive. This is what's happened. Like, man, that part's always so frustrating.
Vignesh:I think they gave us a quick out by, like, her calling Cobell and stuff, but that's the only trope y laziest writing I've seen. And maybe there's a good reason for it. Knowing the writers of the show, I'm sure there's gonna be a great reason for it. But that just, like, always irks me in shows because otherwise, what a masterpiece of, like, showing instead of telling. Right?
Vignesh:Like, she doesn't say, Gemma. Doesn't say, I had a miscarriage. You know it. You see cops at the the door. You don't see a, hey, condolences.
Vignesh:You know, your wife's dead. Like, they do such a good job. The show is just stunning in its visuals and its writing. Cool. So I wanted to point out that we're
Alfredo:gonna put that one thing.
Vignesh:Yeah, man. Let's do it. This is beautiful. This is what happens when a cinematographer directs an episode. Give her the Emmy.
Alfredo:Jessica Lee Gagne. She is normally the cinematographer for for the show. She directed this episode, and it shows, like, they needed something that took them out of the, fluorescent lights of lumen and the muted colors that gave it the vibrance of the world and showed a different time and vague. You talked about that, how we see Mark, how he he the effect of him not being a a depressed sad sack after his wife's death, and what life looked like so differently from just having a haircut to to have having his beard trimmed up to just the lights, the colors, the happiness. It looked honestly like it could have been just a a romance novel type thing or a romance movie.
Alfredo:And instead, we're it's it's sandwiched in between this horribleness that we call severance. But it was beautiful. It was genuinely beautiful, and this has been some of the most powerful storytelling I think I've ever seen on TV. It reminded me a lot of episode three of The Last of Us, long, long time with Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett, where, I mean, you you see their their time as a couple and how it comes to an end, and it felt very similar to this. And you can really see the the the the part that stands out to me the most was not even the happy times.
Alfredo:It was the very last shot we get of Mark when the police come to his door, and it's just the realization, the disbelief, the heartbreak, all of it, and all you see is half of his face. And to me, that signified the exact moment of that mark is gone. All we're going to have now is the severed mark. And it's that goes a lot with the imagery that we see in all of their ads where Mark has his head, like, you know, open cocked open, and it felt very similar to that. And I just have to say one of the most beautiful episodes of TV I've ever seen.
Vignesh:Mhmm. Completely agree, man.
Kopfhamer:And what's all this?
Vignesh:Masterpiece masterpiece of visual storytelling. She just does a wonderful job. I usually as you all know, I usually don't read about, like, how an episode was made. I don't read about those things. I like to do it after I'm done.
Vignesh:I still haven't touched the Reddit. I'm terrified to go onto that Reddit because I'm sure people have much better theories than we do. But, I mean, one of the things that, like, I read about was they
Alfredo:It's a lot of people saying that this was the best episode ever. Cool. I'm going, holy fuck.
Vignesh:That that whole thing with the the tubes, we haven't talked about, like, where you follow the tubes and the wires all the way So cool. From, like, the testing floor up to the refiners, watching the refiners, whatever they are sort of floor. Man, there was no CGI. They had a tiny little dolly and a camera and, like, they actually built a rig. Her her the the the flashback scenes that looked like they were shot on film, they were shot on 16 millimeter film.
Vignesh:That wasn't just, you know besides this just being a great show, this entire episode is just an homage to what television can be and how you can do visual storytelling. It was beautiful. Like I said, truly, like, I mean, this episode needs an Emmy. I haven't seen anything like this in a while.
Kopfhamer:I just love how they play with the different tones of color throughout the episode. And like you were talking about earlier, Vig, when the happy times are being shown, it's a warmer tone. It's this yellows and and oranges. Whereas when we get to the severed floor and the testing floor, everything's bright white and cold and sterile, and it's just that visual storytelling is so powerful. And it's it's it it blew me away.
Kopfhamer:I mean, I was telling you guys before the show, like, after the episode ended yesterday, I had to lay lay down for an hour just to process because it was like, god, this is so much.
Alfredo:I I ran out of this room, like, two or three times crying to go hug and kiss my wife and tell her I love her. Like, it just it it got me right in the feels, man. Well, boys, I think that's a wrap for us. I think we we are able to cover as much as we could in this episode in in just under an hour. But we're gonna be back again on Monday discussing the White Lotus season three episode three, and then we'll be back again, of course, doing our revolving where we're gonna talk about Invincible season three and keep going here with Severance.
Alfredo:As always, I wanna remind you guys to make sure that you subscribe to this channel, like this video, comment down below with your thoughts on the episode. And as always, I wanna thank you all for watching or listening all the way through for myself, for Koff, for Jagger, for Vig. We'll see you next time. Adios.
